Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  Tim Piper on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:12 am

presumably you know what the rules are ? or are you relying on other peoples interpretation because when you ask spedeworth the cannot tell you, no scrutineer knows so please advise us what they are. we were told to do what you like nobody is doing any checks so why have any rules, just cannot see the point or have i missed something.

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  V8 324 on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:15 am

Tim Piper wrote:presumably you know what the rules are ? or are you relying on other peoples interpretation because when you ask spedeworth the cannot tell you, no scrutineer knows so please advise us what they are. we were told to do what you like nobody is doing any checks so why have any rules, just cannot see the point or have i missed something.

Thats the problem lack of support from promotion as a guess most people are going off old rule books
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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  bobdernob2 on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:22 am

Would be a sad day indeed if the scotts left the formula in these circumstances , we should be applauding them and try to emulate them not alienate them!
I also know jnr wanted the engine looked at after the worlds but wasnt requested to do so.
Also i was slated for using used avons on here but in my opinion new ones need scrubbing in so good 2nd hand cheap ones are already scrubbed and like i said no more than 25 quid so i cant see the argument against them as the cost was surely your point outsider!

ROBERT BEALE V8 (2)

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  bobdernob2 on Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:30 am

+ i feel you dont need to spend a fortune to be competative .
I am very interested about the gearbox scunkworks was on about ,i think a BMW ? could this be a better option and a cheaper way to go, as it would create alot of interest i am sure. please tell us more about what you had in mind as im sure its not too late to introduce this and would also keep costs down as people on here are on about.

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  pg125 on Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:01 am

no probs rob,

these are my thoughts for what there worth,

as most people know i have got the superstox now and alan is using my old v8 due to mainly personnel reasons on my part and somewhat due to the simplicity and less expence of the superstox and in my opionion he-in lies i believesome of the problem which ill come back to although im unsure quite how to fix.

i dont believe the scotts should leave the formula they are actually quite widely known outside the formula and good anbassadors i.e ur at wimbo one night watching the meeting and someone says what do you race mate and you reply V8'S and they reply to you ah the scotts race them don't they!......... free promotion for the formula and trust me this does happen!

in my opionon im not sure the promotion should be slagged off too badly on here i think that would be at great overall determiment. its a bit devil's advocate the promotion will promote if they think its worth promoting and ALL formula's suffer this problem not just the v8's. also look in the last 2 issues of wheelspin there is quite a bit of v8 coverage if you read it.

it may also be worth remembering the very drastic period in the late nineties when superstox were get 12 - 15 car grids and were very nearly lost altogether due to how expensive they had become, spedeworth totally ripped up the rule book and re-wrote it simplifing the build, cutting down the expense of engines, gearboxes etc and totally rebuilding the formula. granted it took a few years but its certainly seemed to have worked and this is by no means the only formula its been done to!

im now trying to look from the point of someone trying to start in the formula.

im not sure the avon's should be got rid of ,there VERY durable but they are expensive to purchase but there is alot of second tyres around still so anyone has a choice to least start off racing. also im looking at this from the point of view of having some experience racing on the superstox hoosiers there cheaper to purchase but i dont think there as durable.

i do think the yokohama should be looked at though why are they run stagger, inside weight, durability another problem from a starting driver he has too buy 2 tyre types already and there's spares with wheels on top, we know the yoki makes a big difference to handling but if everyone is on the same then its evened out! and its simpler from a start up point of view only one tyre to worry about i.e simplicity.

wheels are a problem there isnt a common properly readily available wheel for the back, due to you having to redrill the volvo/sherpa axle people inside the formula can do this have start up drivers got the ability , knowledge, facilities ? i personnally dont think all would and could struggle, spedeworth are now stocking wheels direct could some of these possibly ( say 10) be re drilled for volve/ sherpa stud pattern ? (a thought for the next boc meeting maybe) at least this would give people a proper sales outlet.

my personnal feeling is the rules are too complicated for a new starter too understand due to the total vagueness of them, if you look at most other formula's rules they pretty much tell you exactly what you can and cant do. the v8 rule book IMO is really a free for all until the 350 section. 5 litres are free that's it and does anyone honestly expect a 3 grand 350 to keep up with a say 6 grand 302 which is effectively what rule book is asking and most start up people would not know where to start on this 1 IMO. if a set of rules are set on both engines i believe this would limit and cap the expense somewhat and give most people a fighting chance of knowing what they need to build and to what budget!

as alan said earlier there are problems with the component build up all the different parts from different cars but im honestly not sure quite how too solve this whilist maintaining the engine power levels most drivers would like to maintain or should power be reduced too allow wider useage of parts too make it easy for start up people to build a car this and the doug nash gearbox issue i think is a question that existing drivers only can answer but the doug nash gearbox would be an expensive outlay for someone starting up imo.

i dont believe the base chassis are an issue and overall think there is a good mix of variety and style and are pretty simple really dont think these should be changed too much.
with the exception of looking at squaring the cars up and not offsetting the chassis, i think this confuses people looking at the cars and needlessly complicates the cars it also would reduce the cost implications involved in modifying the rear axles to suit the off-set chassis. the handling could be gained back mostly and everyone would be running the same so it wouldnt matter a great deal at the slight if any handling deterement.

i really dont believe that NOT allowing people with a vested interst in the formula too a meeting is productive AT ALL, there are a number of people that are within the formula that put a lot of time effort and work into the formula and IMO are entitled to an opionion i.e partners, mechanics, officials, friends and they are also the same people watching us at the meetings and may have something to offer that us as drivrs cannot see on track! also not allowing possible new drivers to attend a meeting is just deverstating if a meeting is held it should be an open meeting with perhaps a section for specific rule points thats current drivers can discuss and i really think a rep from spedeworth should be there.

also i think its useful opening up and looking at some of the other formula's ideas and rule books particularly, superstox, 1300 stocks, 2.0 stocks, lightening rods and try thinking from a new starter point of view about what the rules are telling you it opened my eyes alot.

i hope i havent offended anyone and i apologise if i have it certainly wasnt my intention and i just felt i wanted to try and help and give my views from the point of view of racing a v8 a then moving to superstox and also helping and watching alan as well.

best regards
peter gray 125


Last edited by pg125 on Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:37 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  JT Racing on Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:05 am

Hi
Some interesting thoughts and ideas, Thanks it would certainly make for an interesting report once collated. As robV831 said Skunkworks know's how to set the car up and jnr is talented in the cockpit...the rest is down the competition to compete with them. Scotts leave the formula Why should they or anyone else for that matter???.Both are good ambassadors for the formula as are a number of other drivers.

Drivers meeting – no Rob I couldn’t see the Harris family left out of the meeting, afterall as you said they have held a day licence ,but as you are very aware meetings need to be restricted to drivers and probably builders, space is often a problem. I could see the possibility of others contributing through the written word after all knowledgeable information on this formula is invaluable, time allowing these or some of these views being tabled.(not sure quite how well this would work may have to be distributed with the agenda)
Obviously this is only IF a meeting were to take place. As yet I have had no fedback on this!

Rule books – as most of you know (Yes even Simon – [no he probably hasn’t got one because evenwith two drivers registered we only got one photo copy] ) I carry a rule book with me to every meeting also a current points chart plus other paperwork that may be needed. Scrutineers have often asked me to clarify a rule

Well I think that will do for now.

Yours in racing
Rosemary
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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  RobV831 on Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:13 pm

Interesting ideas Peter...
The idea of running a standard rear axle is possible as that's all Dad's car has and the car is offset too!
Not sure how running on the same tyre all round would go down with some drivers, it's more possible on a independent car than a beam axle I think this is the reason the stagger was instroduced in the past.

The basic chassis is quite simple to build, I reckon it may be the engines that put people off?
As for capping a 5litre engine...whilst it's open, there are only a handful of drivers who use them. It's there so if someone wants to spend a few quid on a smaller engine they are ok too. A standard 350 is more than adequate as some will attest if you're getting into the formula...if the cars handling right, you can use the power if it's not then you can't. Jnr has a 350 in the car, the car handles and he's the quickest out there.
How much do they spend on engines in the Superstox? I've often heard some engines are often rebuilt every few meetings as the engines are right on the limit??

It sounds to me like its not so much getting people interested, lots of people often seem interested, but it's quite daunting to look at a car and then going a building one. Once they're interested it's all about getting them into a car...so they can see if they like it. The hire cars have helped on this front this year. Once they're hooked it's then giving them all the info possible on where to purchase engines and parts and maybe a suppliers list for the various items on the cars. It's getting a few car builders onside with an affordable cost for a new car (Think Daryl has been looking into this?) then running with it...

Anyhow it's a few more thoughts for everyone to digest.

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Moving Formula forward

Post  Peter Scott Jnr 99 on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:02 am

Finally registered

My brief thoughts for what their worth:

1 . Tyres. Good with or with out tread ( if our formula sources better alternative go for it. ) Dont think this is Killing our formula though

2. Engines / use crate engines 330 BHP rather than performance 420BHP Plus (Pointless racing with that difference, )
I would be happy to go back to crate engine to save our formula and bring the competion closer together . Would need a few seasons to convert or run two classes in that period? As they do on circuits??

3. V8 Meetings? Good idea for everyone who is genuinally interested in the formula

4. Number of meeting from 15 to 12 ( makes sense for a season in this climate, get more cars at fewer meeting and lets be talked about in a positive light.

5. Set up / Grades /Driver Ability/ Preperation should be the main differences between our cars not how much we spend on them

6. Too much money spent on my car. . . engine yes. . .Dashboard yes waste of time never look at it . . .

7.Reason for car winning. Prep and set up Stevens Fabrication and Skunkworks (and Engine as above)


Thats a few thoughts for some feedback. . . . dont hold back as we need to sort this formula out

PLease dont ask technical stuff because I am just the pilot!

Regards

Peter Scott Jnr 99

P.s THANKS TO THE TEAM

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  no longer registered on Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:39 am

Just wanted to say and this is by no means because Peter has posted (very good by the way) that my posts are not intending to have a pop at any driver in the formula. If some of my posts have got people replying then that is a good thing. I am NOT out to discourage anyone or put the boot in for you guys. The truth is you guys race with the same commitment as any other driver in any other formula. But, you have to see that there are things that need to change to draw new drivers into the formula or old drivers back. 11 cars at Wimbledon must be so disheartening for those that made the effort to race and none of this is their fault however, the future is in your hands and no amount of blame laid at Spedeworth's door will do you any favours.

Those that do the winning do so because they spend time on their cars, have the knowledge, the resources and yes, the money too. But the gap between the top of the sport and the bottom is too great and is a big part of why you are struggling for car numbers. Have a drivers meeting for crying out loud and have it soon. Invite anyone but if need be only allow registered drivers to vote.

Now to Jnr's points :


1 . Tyres. Good with or with out tread ( if our formula sources better alternative go for it. ) Dont think this is Killing our formula though - Not killing it but if a cheaper tyre was available it would lower costs.....no bad thing.

2. Engines / use crate engines 330 BHP rather than performance 420BHP Plus (Pointless racing with that difference, )
I would be happy to go back to crate engine to save our formula and bring the competion closer together . Would need a few seasons to convert or run two classes in that period? As they do on circuits?? - Makes sense to me. Trouble is, do you have two seasons to sort it out ? Surely it wouldn't be too difficult to sell your performance parts ?. The point here is not labelling the blame at the top drivers doors, they have engines that are built within the rules. Blame the rule makers who have allowed the rules to make competitive engines unaffordable for most.

3. V8 Meetings? Good idea for everyone who is genuinally interested in the formula - Get a meeting scheduled asap

4. Number of meeting from 15 to 12 ( makes sense for a season in this climate, get more cars at fewer meeting and lets be talked about in a positive light. - Absolutely. This will give everyone more time to get themselves to meetings and hopefully raise your car count. There is no doubting that a good grid of you makes for good entertainment. Once the car nunbers come up to scratch, your promoter will want to put you on more. You never know, you might gain a bit of bargaining power with numbers.

5. Set up / Grades /Driver Ability/ Preperation should be the main differences between our cars not how much we spend on them - Bang on. Make the formula affordable to a wider scope of drivers. Then it'll be down to Set up, ability etc etc

6. Too much money spent on my car. . . engine yes. . .Dashboard yes waste of time never look at it . . . - Fair play Peter. You are a driver leading the way with very sensible suggestions.....follow his lead

7.Reason for car winning. Prep and set up Stevens Fabrication and Skunkworks (and Engine as above) - Yeah, you forgot driver ability.......and I dare say that even with rules changes you will still be top dog......but maybe the pack behind you will be a lot bigger and racing might be a lot more fun for you. You never know, Mr Skunkworks might get the buzz again........jesus, who cares who comes racing as long as they come and race.

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:02 am

The following info might be of some help - both taken from Real Steel

“Goodwrench” New GM “Crate” Engine
These engines are manufactured by GM and are brand
new. Ideal for replacing a similar engine that is worn
out. Runs on std unleaded fuel. Here are some technical
details of the 350 std version- 8.5 to 1 compression,
4 bolt mains, nodular iron cranshaft, hydraulic camshaft,
cast aluminium pistons, 1.94” inlet valves and
1.50” exhaust. Power is generally around 250bhp @
4000 & 360lbs ft of torque @ 3000.
BY12518298 305 1pce seal- approx 1986 on £1662.22
BY10067353 350 2pce seal- approx up to 1985 250bhp £2101.73
BY12520270 350 1pce seal- approx 1986 on 250bhp £2619.24
BY12499529 350 2pce seal- approx up to 1985 290bhp £2008.39


New GM “Crate” Engine 330bhp
This new engine is based on the late 1 pce rear seal 4bm
block. It is fitted with a nodular iron crankshaft,
powdered metal steel conrods, cast aluminium pistons,
hydraulic camshaft, 212/222 @ .050”, 435”/
460” lift. Vortec 64cc heads, 1.94”/1.50” valves, 9:1
compression. 330bhp @ 5000rpm, 380 lbs ft @
3800rpm. Is fitted with chrome rocker cover & timing
cover. This engine uses a Vortec inlet manifold, which
is secured with only 8 bolts. Earlier 12 bolt manifolds
will not fit.
BY12486041 350 1pce seal- approx 1986 on, 330bhp
£2956.28

"I would be happy to go back to crate engine to save our formula and bring the competion closer together . Would need a few seasons to convert or run two classes in that period? As they do on circuits??"

Disagree with Outsider in response to this one. I think it would make 100% sense to either run as two classes or use an handicap system during a transitional period. If not, those who already have them will feel hard done by and there's nothing to say you'd end up with even less cars. I think the Australian modstocks run as two classes (V8 & V6) for similar reasons.
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moving forward

Post  skunkworks on Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:18 am

i think people should reveal who they are on this site. its easy to sit behind a computer screen and snipe at people.its nice to know who you are talking to at a meeting










[/b]can oxford st ring the dazzler
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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  Admin on Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:25 am

Admin= Ray Harris
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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  V8 324 on Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:35 am

simon turner 324 if you couldnt guess Laughing

very fair points made junior 99

so when are we having a meeting before i go spending money on my car
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moving forward

Post  skunkworks on Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:40 am

i know you lot im talking about our new member
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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  billy-mechanicv8-117 on Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:12 am

its up 2 other drivers 2 get there car handling properly and preperation not 4 jnr 2 slow down 2 give everyone a chance. if we was winning no 1 else would be moaning so lets get our fingers out n get on with it!!
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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  Harris Racing #32 on Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:52 am

Right well here goes!!!… I’ve sat for the last couple of days keeping my views and opinions to myself but have digested all that everyone has said…

My following views may p**s some off and others may agree, I’ve been racing in this formula for 13 years now and feel I have a right to vent my opinions!!! If my views offend then take it out on me on the track (may end up with more cars!!) but life goes on and the formula MUST move with it…

I have to agree with Skunkworks, Jnr, Cuz Rob V831 and Simon Turner (Sorry if I forgot anyone Neutral ) but these people really seem to want to push the formula forward into this century!!!
Just go watch the Brisca F1’s on Tarmac nowadays, there not the big crash and smash of the 60’s and 70’s but they are more like RACE CARS with the odd big hit!!!

Everyone who has written on here has failed to pick up on one point but a few have come close…

The V8 Stock Cars DO NOT have a car builder… Since Peter O'Connor stopped building cars, we are missing the HCD’s, Elite, Carcraft, Higman, Daz Kitson and even Wainman Chassis’… Without one becoming committed then people will struggle as they have to build for themselves, I have just done this with the help of Peter O’Connor and wouldn’t be finished without the Stevens Fabrications help; and this took me 3 years to build just working weekends only!!! Most of the above have built the odd car to a high standard but not on the scale of the Supers or Brisca F2’s as they are a little bit more complex in size and strength…

I have been in talks with some of the above car builders and already have package quotes from some which I will have at the N.E.C. Birmingham in Jan 10. They will offer comprehensive build and spares packages and set-up and very reasonable prices!!!

Having read the blogs so far I believe that the drivers reps need to step up to the plate and grab the bull by the horns and construct a drivers meeting to discuss the formula…(My thought!!!) Or at least get something put on here to show their own views…This needs to be structured and and decision point need to be agreed before the meeting is over!!! I think this should be done with the promoter to achieve an aim and to gain some real close backing from them??

As far as the tyres go, I believe they wear well when the cars are handling right!! If anyone one needs a hand to make this happen then just give me a call or speak to any other of the top drivers as I am sure they won’t tell you to poke off…No. 07956 358 918.…
I have been in talks with a very good tyre supplier whom I have become close to of late but this route only needs to be looked at once we really start to struggle with the Avon’s and whether they will keep making them!!!

Restrictor plates?? Is this required as we have the 650 cfm carb on any engine over 5 litre, you’d still have the heads, bottom end and manifold which would all be changeable to counter act this!!!

The small things in the rules need to be monitored more so, this will in turn make people think twice before cheating (If any are…) as they know these checks are happening… Carb cfm checks, aerofoil, Paint (presentable), tyre softener….The Doug nash gearboxes need to be capped at 2 gear sets only as was originally agreed when they were introduced (Two closest to the ZF 1:41 or 1:68)…

As far as the cars go they are starting to look a whole lot better but a few still need to be tidied up and I’m not talking about paint (welding)… As Jnr I may have spent too much on this new car but this car has been built around me by me (With friends/family - they know whom) and is the first time I have had a new car from scratch just for myself, I don’t want to scare people off but I could have built this car for half the price with no loss on handling or power!!!

I've arranged with Short Circuit to have a large spread done to show the break down of the car showing the cost of things, this will appear during the N.E.C. Show edition…we need to get across to people that it ain’t a budget formula to buy into or build as is any formula, but it is a formula you can race year after year on a budget as you don’t need a new engine every 6 months or even 18 months or more!!!

As for the engines, the crate engine ain’t a bad idea but they don’t come complete for 3 grand.. You still need an inlet manifold along with exhaust manifold and carburettor… my full race 283 cu in has cost me 4500.00, and the spare 350 engine my dad has used before his 283 was built cost about 1500.00 ( produce several best lap times and kept him well up in the points!!)

I’m sure I could carry on writing but I’m sure people will start to switch off by now!!!

We need to dig out those that aren’t racing to boost the car numbers and weed out (on track or not) those so called drivers whom like to talk about racing a V8 down the social club and to the neighbours!!!

Regards,

Daryl Harris #32
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moving forward

Post  skunkworks on Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:16 am

the last sentence hits the nail on the head. i like honest people, well done daryl
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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  JT Racing on Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:59 am

HELLO .
[/quote]Having read the blogs so far I believe that the drivers reps need to step up to the plate and grab the bull by the horns and construct a drivers meeting to discuss the formula…(My thought!!!) Or at least get something put on here to show their own views…This needs to be structured and and decision point need to be agreed before the meeting is over!!! I think this should be done with the promoter to achieve an aim and to gain some real close backing from them??

YOU WANT YOUR BOC REPS TO STEP UP TO THE MARK EH? WELL THEY CAN AND WILL.
I HOPE YOU DON'T REALLY THINK JUST BECAUSE YOU DONT SEE SOMETHING PERSONALY FROM JT HE HASN'T HAD ANY INPUT - WRONG, SIMON AND JOHN TALK.

[/quote]A drivers meeting could be organised, but it would be just for registerd drivers, IF it was really wanted and IF it would achieve anything and not just end up being little clicks of conversation going round in circles.

As to BOC John and Peter go to the very few meetings that are held and if anything of consiquence is addressed then this is passed to the drivers, although often the V8’s don’t even get a mention. Just because your representatives don’t reply to everything that appears on the forum dosent mean they don’t know or care whats going on. THEY DO.
We all have invested as much as anyone else in this formula and would be devistated to see it fold..



SO YOU WANT A MEETING
THAT'S OK AND OBVIOUSLY IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING I WOULD, AS IN THE PAST INVITE A REP FROM SPEDEWORTH.
THROUGH JT RACING JOHN AND I IMMEDIATELY OFFERED TO ORGANISE A MEETING (AS HAS HAPPEND IN THE PAST).
A DECISION WOULD HAVE TO BE MADE AS TO WHERE AND WHEN THIS WAS TO BE HELD, ALSO IT MAY EVEN INVOLVE COSTS TO FIND A CENTRAL VENUE ACCESSABLE FOR ALL. OBVIOUSLY SOME FEEL THEY ARE EXCLUDED - WORNG AGAIN EVERYONE IN ENTITLED TO HAVE A SAY, BUT WHEREEVER YOU GO SPACE WILL BE AT A PREMIUM. IF YOU LOOK AT OUR POST YOU WILL SEE THAT WE HAVE TRIED TO INCLUED EVERYONE IN SOME WAY.

I WON’T PUT MY PHONE NUMBER ON THE NET BUT AS I STATED [/quote] You have our number, my email address or you can pm me through this site but please use your real name don’t hide behind sudenames , have the courage of your convictions

Yours in racing
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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  RobV831 on Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:38 am

Quite agree with a lot of the points Daryl came up with...

As for the BOCmembers, I'm sure they work behind the scenes to help the formula, the BOC rarely meets these days, maybe that's something to speak to Spedeworth about?

Before I get into what I want to say...V8 Supporter, Terry wanted to ask how the car's coming along? Also, how are your stocks of Red Diesel, if the travelling costs are nothing compared to the damage at meetings???

Getting back to the serious issues, are cost saving measures what the formula needs? If costs are the main items, having looked through the Super's rules, maybe a limit on costs for the exhaust systems? ignition systems? what about similar limits on the independent front suspensions? (Though I'm happy to keep it free as I'm the only Harris to run independent suspension!!). Though there's a school of thought that the independent cars are quicker than beam axles?

More consistent rule checks would certainly be of help seeing Spedeworth checking cars randomly for whatever they see fit.

I'm not sure why people seem to be getting on the bandwagon about the tyres? What exactly are the issues with the tyres. No matter what tyre is used, there'll be people who aren't happy. We don't want to go to Hoosiers, we;ve tried them on the nearside rear...they last a few meetings before going off if I remember correctly. Bolt on a new tyre for the final and things get much better. We don't really want to head down that route with 4 tyres surely. If tyres are such an issue, why don't we ask Avon to produce a tyre that is harder, maybe something betyween the old Spedeworth and the Brisca compunds?

Does anyone have any ideas as to what the real problems are with drivers not racing?
Is it the cost of running the cars? Getting them to a meeting? The prospect of maintaining a V8? Cost of competing with the top guys? The top guys being too far ahead of most of the others?

Regarding a drivers meeting, go idea I guess, may help in the pushing forward for new ideas? But we'd need to ensure that a proper agenda was written and stuck too, so we don't end up like in previous years with people going off on tangents talking about allsorts with nothing being sorted by the end of the meeting. To stop the cliche's being formed as in previous years, how about all the mechaincs and drivers separated? or maybe everyone sits in age order? I'm guessing Pete Blomfield would be at one end with the twentysomethings down the other!!! (Sorry Pete couldn't resist!)

Getting back to an idea Daryl came up with regarding help with setting up the cars...I know it's been mentioned before in years gone by, practice day perhaps? or maybe prior to a meeting once or twice or more per year...where people having trouble can get there early along with some guys who can help with setting up the cars? Maybe help with the tyre wear too and encourage drivers having problems to attend a meeting too???

Anyhow, I'm back down the pub to have a few more drinks and talk up the fact I own a V8!

Rob

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  charlieh on Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:39 am

it is interesting to read the various opinions on what is wrong with the formula. i have raced various formulas but not v8s.i have been involved since the beginning of the formula with terry O'Connor and then with peter O'Connor who is my son in law. the point about no car builders is well made but it is hard to make a living building cars. you make more money making gates and other metal fabrications. i would like to put some thoughts from the other side of the fence.there should be a move to find a new tyre or to see if avons will make a harder compound.that tyre has been going since 1971 when i was one of the first to use them on a super stock having got the idea from formula ford.the drivers should approach major tyre companies to try out a new tyre which could be tried out by the drivers.the gearbox needs to be sorted out because of the cost of Doug Nash gearbox's and the cost of the gear sets.in Holland they use the Mercedes van gearbox or why not look at transit gearbox with shortened main shaft.as for the engine the rules should be looked at to make them simpler to know what you can do.it does not matter how much power you have you still have to get it down on the track.this is where set up is crucial as Daryl Harris points out many a time he as phoned from the track to peter to find out what to alter to make the car handle.the drivers need to hold a meeting to go through the various things to make the sport stronger and to discuss ways of getting more cars out racing like asking the promoter if some incentive to get people racing might help in this recession, it needs to be held to find out why you cannot keep drivers but other formulas can like hot stock,formula 1 and superstock. i can provide a hall for a meeting in london ten minutes from the end of the m1 and ai at Swiss cottage. this can be arranged through the site administrator.

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  Admin on Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:45 am

charlieh wrote: i can provide a hall for a meeting in london ten minutes from the end of the m1 and ai at Swiss cottage. this can be arranged through the site administrator.

If you say so Charlie, it's the first I've heard of it!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  Tim Piper on Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:50 am

think some people may be missing the point you can have all the meetings you like, that will change nothing what should happen is somebody should start talking to spedeworth and let them know what you are thinking, you are all presuming spedeworth will go along with anything you agree, that would be a wrong assumption what you should be working on the assumption they will get rid of the formula unless the numbers change immediately that must be your starting point then discuss getting rid of the silly engines and gear boxes and go back to standard, with regard to the tyres Avon do not make the 7.3 they are made by Avon to the specification of a distributor that is why there were kicked out of f 2 as not only was the driver tampering with the tyre also so was the distributor , the 7.3 is a 50 mph tyre that is why it is soft what you need is a 90 mph tyre that will last with a reasonable amount of grip, the other alternative for the formula is to go independent like the hot stox, rebels and midgets that way you can get your house in order and run to what spec the drivers want , just a thought.

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  charlieh on Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:18 am

i would have thought you needed a meeting to find out what the majority of drivers would like to see then go and try to negotiate with the promoter.

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Re: Ideas/Suggestions to push the formula forward

Post  Admin on Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:46 am

If there is a meeting, it has already been stated that a Spedeworth representative would be invited. The key to solving the situation is to find out why a lot of the drivers with cars have not been racing. I don't think any of those drivers are registered on the forum so we're not going to find out on here. If anyone knows the contact details of any such drivers, try and get them on the forum. As I have said before, we all need to pull in the same direction for the benefit of the formula. Certain other drivers are registered on the forum but as yet have not posted any comments.
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Re: Moving the formula forward

Post  Old Trucker on Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:56 am

Moving the formula forward No quick answer to this so I will do my best to put down some of my own thoughts. I think most will agree that we are talking car numbers. So how do we achieve this. Looking at various web sites a person can be on the track in a superstox, Formula 2, or a Hotstox for about £2500.So why would someone want to buy a `V8.If I remember correctly an older car sold for a very realistic £700,fairly quickly Another recent driver was on the track for about this money Alan’s first car was £2600.This formula is not F1 Most of the people that are likely to join the formula do not have unlimited funds We have to compete with other formulas to encourage drivers to join our formula. How by keeping starting and running costs down.

When we speak about cars not racing there may be an element of pub racers, But I feel most will have a very valid reason for not racing. Yes if it is a mechanical problem I am sure any of us would be only too willing to help. If its a financial problem we can hardly have a whip round for them. We have to look at the bigger picture, make the formula more attractive for drivers to join us.

The point that has been raised by Skunkworks, Charlie and Messrs Harris is well made. We don’t have a chassis constructor. This is a catch 22 in that no one will make investment until car numbers rise, V8’s are unique with the amount of talented people skilled in fabrication and welding. These skills are not so common in other formulas. The amount of people in superstox buying bumpers wishbones etc is surprising. This we have little or no control over

Tyres, Yes if only they were cheaper or there was a cheaper alternative it would be a big help All open wheel formulas seem to have trouble with tyres personally I don’t see this as a major problem

As I see it we should not be speaking about this car being faster than that car. The man on the terrace is not interested if a driver has spent £1500 or £5000 on his engine he wants to see good, close, skilful racing Ultimate engine power has no bearing on this. the point was made about crate engines, The new driver entering the formula after having bought a chassis may not have £3000 to buy an engine. I think that standardising engines at 350cu in makes a lot of sense in the long term. Crate engines are fitted as we know with vortex heads yes they make more power but they are not freely available on the second hand market. Most 350’s are fitted with 76cc heads. These heads are not popular with tuners and can be bought for £20 to £40 If these heads were used as the standard the new driver buying a second hand engine would be able to use the heads that came with the engine. Flat top pistons give 9.1 compression.0.100 -5cc raised top give 10.2.1 approx 330 bhp the same as vortex crate engine but with lower start up cost and the cost spread over the rebuild time. Spending £5000 on an engine when a 350 will cost £1500 to £2000 makes no economic sense and has no effect on the spectacle of racing. A question worth pondering over is did you enjoy your racing any less when the cars were a bit slower.

Shock absorbers I don’t Know how wide spread it is but i know some people revalve maybe this could be addressed to reduce costs
A point was made about 350’s being restricted by using 650cfm carbs. BLP carbs are being used on some 350 These carbs have 650 venturis but guaranteed by makers to flow 800 cfm+ What restriction? And much more expensive.
Cars look great with big wings and add individuality but if smaller wings are cheaper this again helps the new driver.
Gearboxes are something we have to work on may be the bmw or merc box that has been mentioned is something to look into.
I think the rules need to be looked at and tightened so that drivers coming into the formula know exactly what they need and what they can and can’t do.
Drivers are their own worst enemy. They want more power to go faster. And the need to protect the investment and rightly so. I talk from experience. But at some stage we have to draw a line and move on. These thoughts are put on here only in an attempt to try to reduce costs for someone joining the formula, I wish no offence to anyone and hope it is received in the spirit it is intended.
Brian.dogsbody and gofer 521.125

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